Ireland considering legislation to ban all new petrol and diesel car sales by 2030.

[Blind_Io]

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1229/1103466-electric-car/

Pretty ambitious, we are pushing forward with EV technology, but to do this in 10 years would be a significant push.

 

[prizrak]

That sounds completely impossible

 

[narf]

The furthest A-B trip in Ireland is about 8h / 600km, the furthest A-B trip between two places with at least 10000 population is about 450km, for 25k or more pairs it's 337km, 50k or more it's 259km.

Seems like an ideal place for BEVs.

 

[prizrak]

The furthest A-B trip in Ireland is about 8h / 600km, the furthest A-B trip between two places with at least 10000 population is about 450km, for 25k or more pairs it's 337km, 50k or more it's 259km.

Seems like an ideal place for BEVs.

Range is but one consideration, by that logic all of NYC should be all EVs...

Here are a few more things to consider.

Does everyone in angry land also have their own garage/spot where a charger could be installed? Also did EVs drop in price to their ICE counter parts? Did batteries start lasting as long as ICE cars? Did battery prices massively decline? How long does a new car stay in circulation there? Do they have a grid capable of supporting all the potential new EVs? Do EVs meet all the user requirements for Irish drivers?

 

[narf]

Range is but one consideration, by that logic all of NYC should be all EVs...

Here are a few more things to consider.

Does everyone in angry land also have their own garage/spot where a charger could be installed? Also did EVs drop in price to their ICE counter parts? Did batteries start lasting as long as ICE cars? Did battery prices massively decline? How long does a new car stay in circulation there? Do they have a grid capable of supporting all the potential new EVs? Do EVs meet all the user requirements for Irish drivers?

https://google.ie

 

[GRtak]

Range is but one consideration, by that logic all of NYC should be all EVs...

Here are a few more things to consider.

Does everyone in angry land also have their own garage/spot where a charger could be installed? Also did EVs drop in price to their ICE counter parts? Did batteries start lasting as long as ICE cars? Did battery prices massively decline? How long does a new car stay in circulation there? Do they have a grid capable of supporting all the potential new EVs? Do EVs meet all the user requirements for Irish drivers?

Angry Land?

Beyond that, you are a broken record. EVs will work for most people 90% of the time. Charging infrastructure has improved greatly over the last decade and will continue to improve over the next decade. The variety of EVs is also improving with trucks just around the corner.

 

[prizrak]

https://google.ie

You are the one arguing for Ireland being perfect for BEVs it’s on you to support your argument not me.

 

[prizrak]

Angry Land?

Ire-land, it’s a pun.

Beyond that, you are a broken record.

So then refute my claims. Laws of physics are also a “broken record” by that logic...

EVs will work for most people 90% of the time.

Evidence? Also 90% of the time seems rather low to me when my car works 100% of the time.

Charging infrastructure has improved greatly over the last decade and will continue to improve over the next decade. The variety of EVs is also improving with trucks just around the corner.

Everything with EVs has been “just around the corner” for as long as I remember.

Charging infra depends on electric infra, what improvements have been made in electric grids around the world? Last I checked most countries are barely breaking even with current generation capacity and with nimbys and general dislike of nuclear I don’t see it changing much.

However all of that is completely irrelevant when a government of a country is literally mandating specific technology.

Mind you this is based on a whole 20% of emissions being from transport

P.S. That’s ignoring the fact that natural resources required for EVs are just as finite as oil, and some of them are literally called “rare earth minerals” because of their scarcity. Yes we can recycle batteries and such but what is the yield and also how many can we have “in the wild” at any given time when everything is battery powered, would it be enough for everyone who wants a car to have one? I remember someone on these boards posted a study saying that there is literally not enough lithium to replace UK’s cars with EVs

 

[GRtak]

So then refute my claims. Laws of physics are also a “broken record” by that logic...

You missed the broken record part. The arguements have been made, you refuse to accept the answers.

Evidence? Also 90% of the time seems rather low to me when my car works 100% of the time.

Most people only drive 30 miles a day, so with very little effort an EV will do that. Many only charging once a week.

Everything with EVs has been “just around the corner” for as long as I remember.

Yawwwn.

Charging infra depends on electric infra, what improvements have been made in electric grids around the world? Last I checked most countries are barely breaking even with current generation capacity and with nimbys and general dislike of nuclear I don’t see it changing much.

Most EVs will charge at night when there is an abundance of wind power is available, so no real change needed.

Nuclear is expensive, period, end of story. That is before you consider decommissioning too.

However all of that is completely irrelevant when a government of a country is literally mandating specific technology.

I admit, I don't like this part of it.

Mind you this is based on a whole 20% of emissions being from transport

So if we were to stop producing 20% of our emissions, that would be a fairly significant amount right?

I would love to see shipping forced to use cleaner fuels, but then people would cry about stuff costing more due to costs involved in changing that industry.

P.S. That’s ignoring the fact that natural resources required for EVs are just as finite as oil, and some of them are literally called “rare earth minerals” because of their scarcity. Yes we can recycle batteries and such but what is the yield and also how many can we have “in the wild” at any given time when everything is battery powered, would it be enough for everyone who wants a car to have one? I remember someone on these boards posted a study saying that there is literally not enough lithium to replace UK’s cars with EVs

Do you know what the single largest use of cobalt is? It is used to remove sulfer from fossil fuels.

 

[prizrak]

I was going to make a massive post addressing everything you said with links, but really I don't care to get into another EV vs ICE argument (I'll leave the links at the end for those interested in reading more) because that's really not what my original response to @Blind_Io was about anyway.

What I want to focus on, and what I was really trying to get at from the get go is the below point.

I admit, I don't like this part of it.

That is exactly what I am talking about! The government is basically fucking over it's citizens by either pricing them out of car ownership altogether or forcing those who need one to have to pay significantly more.

So if we were to stop producing 20% of our emissions, that would be a fairly significant amount right?

It's 1/5th of total emissions, the ROI is not even remotely there when you consider the actual real world cost of forcing drivers to switch over.

I used US numbers simply because it's easier but I doubt EU is much different.
Cheapest ICE car in 2019 was the Chevy spark @ $14,000 https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g19459503/cheapest-new-cars-2018/?slide=9
Cheapest EV was Smart EQ @ $26,700 https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/cheapest-electric-cars

That's nearly twice the price for a way less practical car, that's a massive difference that no amount of "cheap fuel" is ever going to make up for it.

What this is likely going to cause is people holding on to their cars for longer and instead of getting a newer more efficient and less emissive ICE car they will be driving something way past it's expiration date making air worse and roads more dangerous (look at Cuba for an example of that).

I would love to see shipping forced to use cleaner fuels, but then people would cry about stuff costing more due to costs involved in changing that industry.

It would be a small difference as it would be massively spread out over each individual unit. Biggest cost in EU is VAT and various customs duties not the actual price of product.

To get somewhat political, which let's face it a topic like regulation was always going to be, the Irish government is looking to screw it's people over to cut a small amount of emissions because:
a) They have very little power compared to corporations and
b) They can't enforce any kind of emissions on the shipping companies as they are not going to be based out of Ireland.

Links:
Lithium Supply - https://www.greentechmedia.com/arti...ntain-the-growth-of-the-lithium-ion-battery-m
Cost of "renewable" infra - https://www.technologyreview.com/s/...-cant-rely-on-batteries-to-clean-up-the-grid/
Production capacity - https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/26/ele...s-supply-crunch-for-battery-metals-looms.html[/quote]

P.S. If EVs really do have some sort of a crazy breakthrough in 10 years that allow for price parity between ICE and EV along with similar quick and easy refueling we have with gasoline cars now, GREAT! I will welcome them with open arms, while still keeping my V8 as a weekend toy but mandating that entire country (even if it is smaller than the state I live in...) switches over is just insane.